Soul-care in Leadership with Danielle Gilmore

In this episode, I speak with Danielle Gilmore on what she calls "soul-care": tending to the parts of us still developing, the depths of grief and loss, and the power of relationships and community. 

Danielle is a leadership educator, meditation practitioner and tree hugger. Danielle’s practices use wellness principles and modalities to support self-leadership. Graduating with a Masters in Organizational Leadership from Indiana Institute of Technology, she works to make leadership irresistible. Danielle makes space for those often most marginalized and offers practical tools for Black women and community to engage in transformative community building. 

In her journey of making leadership accessible, she presented at the Oxford Women’s Leadership Symposium in 2015 on Black women’s wellness. During the day she works with young Black professionals in building their capacity as change makers in the city of Toronto. Danielle founded Activated Activists Consulting in 2018 and travels to organizations across North America providing wellness centred leadership education, rooted in collective healing.

She is also a long time meditator who facilitates meditation sessions for beginners and is always open to connecting with other meditators. 

You can stay in touch with Danielle Gilmore on Instagram at @dani_publiclyspeaking and reach her via email at daniellefgilmore@gmail.com!

Stay in touch with all KAI YIN Spells & Skills updates by signing up to my newsletter on my website, and following me on Instagram and Facebook! I love hearing from you; let me know what you’d like to learn more about in future episodes! 🐉

Transcript

Anabel Khoo  00:00

Hey everyone! Welcome back to the podcast! On this episode, I'm speaking with Danielle Gilmore, who will be sharing her brilliant insights and experiences with us around the theme of what she calls "soul-care". Danielle is a leadership educator, meditation practitioner and tree hugger. Danielle's practices use wellness principles and modalities to support self leadership. Graduating with a Master's in organizational leadership from Indiana Institute of Technology, she works to make leadership irresistible. Danielle makes space for those often most marginalized and offers practical tools for Black women and community to engage in transformative community building. In her journey of making leadership accessible, she presented at the Oxford Women's Leadership Symposium in 2015 on Black women's wellness. During the day, she works with young Black professionals in building their capacity as changemakers in the city of Toronto. Danielle also founded Activated Activists Consulting in 2018, and travels to organizations across North America, providing wellness centered leadership education, rooted in collective healing. She is also a longtime meditator who facilitates meditation sessions for beginners, and is always open to connecting with other meditators. Here is our interview that we did this past fall, it was so lovely, I hope when you listen to it, you'll feel just how incredible Danielle is and just the energy that she brings to a conversation. And I can only imagine what that feels like to be able to experience in person and in a workshop or meditation. So yeah, check it out, there's also going to be a really amazing prompt that Danielle is going to offer you, the listeners.

Anabel Khoo  02:09

Thanks so much for joining us, Danielle! To start if you wanted to share a bit about your work. And also, how you use wellness principles to support self leadership.

Danielle Gilmore  02:24

First, I want to say you have an incredible way of just making me feel really calm. And like I want to just say things to you, like, "Yes, I'm dealing with this." And so I really appreciate your energy. Some of my work. So I get the opportunity to facilitate lots and lots and lots of workshops. And I say that in a gratitude, gracious, thankful kind of way. And also, I'm really having to like up my mental capacity to be able to do this. And I'm really excited. So I facilitate workshops all across the board from leadership development, team building facilitation skills, mindful leadership, meditation workshops, mindfulness workshops, in general, like I just kind of get to do my thing there across the board. And this whole idea around a mindful leader came about for me, I started meditating about 13, or so years ago. And I really started with a practice, called Vipassana, that I won't go into a ton of detail about, but it's mostly about body scans. And you know, you go to a personal retreat, it's a 10 day long retreat, you meditate for about 15 hours a day, of course, there's some breaks in there. And it's mostly about feeling the sensations of our body. And I got my Undergraduate in business, I don't know why I'm not at all interested in business, or anything that comes along with it other than my weekly monthly budget kind of thing. But then I started to think about this. And I'm like, okay, because I have this already, what's something I could get to build upon it in an academic way? So I went and I got my Master's in leadership and development. And so I thought I would take that in my way in the direction of becoming an executive director, because nonprofit is also something that I've done for over a decade now. And I slowed it down, I thought, what are some other things that I can do with a Master's in leadership and development, I could think about organizational culture. I can think about team building and development, I can think about all these things. And so it came to me, "Okay, I'm gonna pair together two things that I'm passionate about. I'm really passionate about leadership. And I'm really passionate about mindfulness and meditation." And so I put the two together, because I think about how important it is for a leader to know how to do a body scan of sorts, because we find ourselves in all kinds of predicaments that call for us to really be able to like I said earlier, when you and I were just talking, sidestep our feelings for a bit so we can put ourselves in the shoes of whoever our support people are. And so I thought I would start doing some work around that. And it's been pretty cool so far.

Anabel Khoo  05:08

Yeah, that's amazing! I think it's great how you're able to combine those two passions. I think there's so many ways that like, you know, leadership has become so corrupted by capitalism. It sounds like you're redefining what leadership means or can look like for folks. 

Danielle Gilmore  05:27

It's always incredibly delightful--to use a kind of "out there" word-- delightful to invite people to see all the ways that they're already leaders in their life, right. Many of us if we have siblings, or in our family dynamics, we lead in some capacity or just in our own lives, we lead ourselves in particular ways, we have routines that we stick to, to help us fully realize some of the goals that we have. It's my serious passion to help us all realize that leadership is accessible to all of us. You don't have to have any particular degree or educational background or work experience or professional development experiences. Of course, all those things are helpful. But we're leaders, just because we show up in some of the ways that we do. And I like to bring that out of individuals, because it's already there.

Anabel Khoo  06:20

Yeah, like that inherent worth is so special and important to have that be centered versus like, okay, we're always constantly looking outside of us for that kind of wisdom or that power. And yeah, I think that's, it sounds like that's kind of the key to good facilitation. Is there's anything you wanted to share about, you know, what you love most about facilitating groups?

Danielle Gilmore  06:51

Let's see, that's an incredible question. What I love most. So oftentimes, when I start off workshops, I say, I believe in the mastermind collective. So I show up to these experiences, understanding that I am, but one among many who is going to bring my knowledge, skills and experience, right my experience, strength and hope, to whatever it is that we're working on collectively. And so I want everyone to know who's ever participating in any workshop, that I'm facilitating that it's about the collective, I consider myself to be a lifelong learner. And so I want everyone to know that we are co-facilitating this workshop. And I think that's what I love the most, anytime we come together with our cultural backgrounds, our educational backgrounds, you know, our, our knowledge and skills that we've learned over the course of leaving, anytime we all come together and put that in one space, something wonderful is going to come about, even if it's a better understanding of each other. Or if we come together and build something that we want to offer back up to the community, whatever it is, it's going to be incredible, because more than one individual's experience has been taken into consideration. And I think that's the way that we build communities. And I absolutely am all about the importance of communities.

Anabel Khoo  08:07

Yeah, I think we were chatting about that the first time when we were just meeting for the first time on video, but I think we were talking about like constellations, and stars. And, you know, that sense of expansiveness. And fostering a space where, like, there's room for everyone. And you don't have to compete, you know, in terms of thinking about leadership. I think there's like, that hierarchy. Maybe people think of like, leadership means you have to, like dominate everyone, and control from this top down kind of structure. But it's like, no, we can be powerful together. And we can use each other as maps to navigate like what to do next.

Danielle Gilmore  08:53

We can be expansive and revolutionary in some of the ways that we go about leading. Something that I'll say, is I also think wording is important. And I know myself with some of the social media pieces with some of the ways that I grew up, it's like you're either a leader or you're a follower, you know, and I really like this idea that you can be a leader and have "support people," not necessarily "followers," because I'm of the belief that we can't lead--at least in the capacity of having other individuals who we are leading--without them agreeing to support us. Right. So we have leaders, and we have support people, which is somewhat to go back to some of what you're saying. I think that's why we're seeing some of what we are overall, like nationwide was some of what some leaders are getting into around corruption, etc. Because we don't have the people on your side, you just decide that you are a leader and there are a few other people who have decided the same, but the collective is not vibing with what it is you have going on, which is how corruption comes about, which is how we leave out particular communities and we make up thoughts and ideas about who's deserving and who's not. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm a little in the blue goo and kind of dabbling in the Kumbaya, but I do think that we can all coexist in a way that equity is possible.

Danielle Gilmore  08:59

Yeah. And I think it happens all the time. And it's like, it's just not reported.

Danielle Gilmore  10:18

Right, right.

Anabel Khoo  10:20

I think that, yeah, like really revolutionary things happen, in so called mundane ways, like how we treat each other, like just, you know, the energy people are probably bring to your workshops. Like just being open, I think, is a really powerful skill or, you know, have space to be vulnerable and brave and all those things... Those are skills, and I think it's just that they don't, they're not upheld in those ways.

Danielle Gilmore  10:49

Yeah, I would agree. Because I think along with vulnerability, sometimes comes intimacy. And what a scary word, just period, it's terrifying, right. And I got the opportunity to facilitate a workshop that I called Into Me, You See, right, "intimacy". And this particular workshop--and I get a little giggly when I share this--but it was a nude workshop, a nude meditation workshop. And I believe I talked a bit with you about that. And it's one of the most powerful workshops I ever get the opportunity to facilitate, because there's something about being literally nude, you know, no clothing, that kind of leaves us in such a vulnerable space that we don't have any choice but to tell our truth, as we know it. And of course, that truth is always changing and growing, etc. But in those moments, I've seen some of the most incredibly amazing things come about for people who are sitting in front of a partner doing, you know, talking about questions that have been thrown out. Naked, I never would have thought of anything like that before. And the way I came about doing it was just kind of serendipitous, but it's something that I look forward to, because those, those are some of the most precious moments ever. And I've seen people give hugs to each other. And I've seen tears. And I know sometimes I've been like reared to think that anytime I'm in the nude with someone else, that means something inherently sexual is about to happen or should be happening. So there's something really wonderful to be in a safe space where none of that is even being thought about. And it's more about collection--connection rather--like in collaboration.

Anabel Khoo 12:32

Yeah, I'm sort of remembering a concept you brought up. I think you said you call it "soul-care" versus--not "versus"-- but maybe like an evolution or expansion on "self-care"?

Danielle Gilmore 12:44

Absolutely. Listen, Anabel, now you're getting into my passion place. This whole idea around soul care, I'll say that probably a decade or so I really started to pay attention to some of the self care pieces, you know, take baths and, you know, make sure to exercise regularly and routinely and get enough sleep. And I thought all of those are really wonderful. But what about that deeper place inside of us that we nurture by being around people who we love and who love us? Or that we nurture by connecting with someone who helps us look at some of these things that have kept us down for some time, trauma, things of that nature? What about that place inside of us that needs to be seen by someone we love? That needs to feel safe? I call that soul care. And that looks all kinds of ways for me over the years that I've come up with this whole idea and concept. It has looked like sometimes stepping away from some of the spaces that I found myself in that was no longer working for me. It has looked like going to talk with a therapist about "hey, I'm having these experiences and I need tools to help me know what to do with them." It has looked like going to people who I've hurt and making appropriate amends to them to say, "Hey, I realize that I caused this harm and I want to be accountable for this." Like those deeper parts of us that need to be nourished and nurtured and taken care of, I call that soul care.

Anabel Khoo  14:14

Yeah, that's like beautiful and so difficult!

Danielle Gilmore  14:19

You said it, the ongoing work, right?

Anabel Khoo  14:24

It's so much harder, but it's also for a more, like a deeper purpose: connection and healing. And it shifts the paradigm when you do that kind of work.

Danielle Gilmore  14:36

I agree and something that's coming up for me, I had a recent session with my therapist. And we talked about this whole idea of having enough "me" to make a "we". I think that's so essential, and not just for us to be able to do anything in the capacity of working or going back. Nothing like that. But I have to have enough "me" to understand how I can even fit into a "we," whether that'd be my community, my friendships, my relationships of the intimate variety and romantic variety. I feel--I'll bring it into my own heart space--I have to continuously work on nurturing and loving and caring for that "me". Because without doing so I don't even know where I fit in to some of the "we's" that I find myself being a part of. So I think that that continuous ongoing, developing of those parts of ourselves is essential. And even I sometimes really shudder at calling it "work," because I don't want it to feel like it's one other thing we have to do, "I have to look at this," "One other thing I have to work on." I think it's life experiences, right, which is one more experience that I get to have around becoming more of who I want to be, and I get to choose that. No one gets to give me a layout of who they think I should be, our society at large, telling me who I should be, or what kind of connection I should fit into, around my romantic choices, etc. It's like, no, it's me standing up and taking full ownership of who and how I want to be, as I navigate the world, with the rest of the other individuals who are learning how to take full responsibility for who and how they want to be.

Anabel Khoo  16:18

Yeah, just really tuning in and attending to like, what is happening within you. That learning piece of it's like, when you do that, you don't need to be sure. Or even be like, "I went in and I figured out who I was." And it's sort of ongoing work. It's like you're gardening, or you're growing different things. And like, it's not like a one time thing, you don't really know what will happen. You're just sort of trying to make sure the right conditions are okay. And there's some things you can't control. And sometimes you're really surprised. I don't know, I'm not like a gardener.

Danielle Gilmore  17:03

I was gonna say that the analogy is wonderful, like, you are nailing it.

Anabel Khoo  17:07

I think I've just watched a lot of document nature documentaries.

Danielle Gilmore  17:10

Well, listen, it's working. You're doing an incredible job. No, it really made me think about this, and then funny enough, over here, I have my partner's plant, who we are trying to keep alive, right. And it has bugs, and we continue to give it a nice little bath and spray this stuff on it, it's supposed to make the bugs go away. And it's not. And so we're now considering whether or not we need to, unfortunately, you know, get rid of it. Because it's now like, putting bugs on all the other plants behind us here. And so it happens sometimes. And where I'm going with that is you know, as we are developing, sometimes we get bugs. Whatever that means for us. Like, self doubt. Insecurity, a bug. But the thing about it is we get to, you know, kind of  get that one out, and then something else is gonna come for sure. Because I just think that's the nature of growing and developing. So I thought your garden analogy was very on point to what what we're experiencing one moment at a time.

Anabel Khoo  18:18

Yeah, I think a lot about like, composting, too, you know, it's not like, you know, the plant is going to disappear. It's like, well, it could still contribute to life down the road, but it has to go through a transformation first. And that's sometimes that's the best we can do.

Danielle Gilmore  18:39

Listen, this is turning into a gardening podcast and I love it.

Anabel Khoo  18:45

I guess now that we're talking about composting. I guess I had a question about, you know, we were talking about grief earlier. And I think of grief as a composting process. It destroys us and then it rebirths things and it's really intense, and it can be really awful. And at the same time, stuff happens after, and through the process. So I don't know if you wanted to share any thoughts about grief and transformation?

Danielle Gilmore  19:24

The big G word right, grief. You know, we're familiar.  Grief and I have been friends, I can say that. I mentioned to you as we were kind of getting acquainted and figuring out some of what we wanted to talk about here today that there were about two years of my life very recent, two years where in a span of about, I believe, 18 months or so my father died unexpectedly. My partner and I lost the baby in the second trimester. And a really close friend of mine died of cancer. And all of this happened in a matter of about in the span of about 18 months to a year, I think two years, actually 18 months to two years. And I don't know if I've ever felt so much despair in my life, like, I pretty much can say that I haven't. And there were days where I thought, "Okay, where do I go from here?" In a very serious way, like I, at one point, I took a few months off from work at that time, and really started to up my therapy appointments. And it just felt like I was I was just living in darkness. And I thought, "Will it always be this way?" I think I was more terrified of that idea that I will never get out of this, I will always feel this way. I will always miss these people like this, I will always continue to just kind of spin around in my head what I wish I would have said, kind of beat myself up for what I did say, and that I wish I would have apologized for, like just all of that. And I can't tell you why or when or how outside of "everything has its season". And I know  that that's a bit cliche. But I started to wake up from that experience, I started to have things to be grateful for. The time that I did get to spend with those individuals, my father and my close friend. I started to cry more, which I feel like is one of the most incredible ways of releasing. And I mean, I cried from the depths of what felt like my soul sometimes, because something about grief, for me at least, is that it wasn't just that I was feeling these things from the present moment and current time. All this other stuff that was kind of lying dormant down in there also started to come up too. And I had to let myself feel that. And I can't really say that it's all the way back there in the past, because I think I'm still making my way through some of it one day at a time. Yet, as I continue to process through some of it, I realized for myself, some of what I've heard before, that the depths of our despair also show us the depths of our happiness, our joy. I find such peace sometimes just looking out at the fall colors. Like I really love the fall, it's always been my favorite season. And there's something now that experience in a time that was so dark for me that now I've any bit of light shines brightly. And I can see it and I'm grateful to be able to. It also really taught me the importance of closeness with other human beings and individuals. Because anytime I would go somewhere and have a conversation about some of what really hurt me, it would have other people open up and share with me about some of the things that hurt them as well. And that was like that immediate connection, where I felt like I wasn't so alone. I felt healed in some of what I was experiencing, and I felt the opportunity to hold someone else in their experience as well. And I also got to see the importance of community and I use that word a lot a lot. And I'm not just speaking about like our community and our neighborhood like, I mean community. I think wherever we find ourselves in our friend groups, that's community, whatever our orientation is in others who share it. That's community, right. And so I really started to find just this absolute embrace and loving encounters that came from these individuals that I shared my community with. And all of this made me want to give this back to someone else, anyone else who came across me who was having such hard times, because we can't keep what we don't give away, is what I hear sometimes in spaces that I find myself in, and I want to keep joy so I give it away. I want to keep love, I work on giving it away. I want to keep open mindedness, I work on giving that away in whatever capacity it looks like. And so that's a really long way of saying just how much grief like grows us. It definitely grew me and is growing me. And I have kind of come to see it as not such a horrible thing. It hurts, absolutely it does. In many ways. It can sometimes bring us down completely to where we have to rebuild and figure out how to come back up from whatever it was that took us down. But also in that rebuilding. Such wonderfulness. Because I got to really take a look at certain things and ways that I was being in things that I had aligned myself with that no longer fit. And now I had nothing else to really lose, because I was so down, I thought, "I don't want to take that along for the rest of my journey." Or "I do want to take this along for the rest of my journey." Or "I do want to let these people know just how much I love and care about them." Or "I do understand now that these relationships no longer serve me, and I'm going to kindly walk aw ay." Like it just was a real moment of transformation. And I continue to work through some of that.

Anabel Khoo  25:26

Yeah, it's such a process!

Danielle Gilmore  25:30

It's a process, it's ongoing.

Anabel Khoo  25:32

I was just thinking about autumn and grief, and like the clarity that comes in that feeling destroyed in that place of having nothing left. And in Traditional Chinese Medicine, there's like, seasons that go with emotions. Autumn is a season of grief, and it's associated with the Metal element, almost like when you think of like using metal to slice through something. Like a clean cut, usually. And, yeah, I don't know, I think that piece around clarity, that perspective that you get can be really powerful. But there's definitely a period of just being kind of bare, having to really go back in, in the deepest parts of yourself to refill that well of love.

Danielle Gilmore  26:24

You and the analogies are incredible. Incredible. Because it does have me thinking about the seasons, right? Like, we know at least we--our fingers crossed that we'll continue to have four seasons based on some of the other things that we can go off on a bit of a tangent about--but, if we just keep it there, you know... The fall, as you just said, the trees are bare, right? No leaves, the particular colors that we see until we don't see any colors anymore, because everything is gray and dull as we move into winter. And then winter, right, we tend to--well, I tend to kind of go into myself a bit more and hibernate and try to stay out of the snow as best as possible because I am not a winter person in the least. But I've come to appreciate its timing and its necessity in there with the flow of all things. And then we go into the spring. Starting to get more color back on the trees, etc. And then summer. And all of this happens, we don't need to force it. There's no goals around it, there's no worry that we need to be at any particular time, these seasons just flow naturally, we get almost set and we do set our calendar to the right like this is gonna happen, it's gonna happen. And I think about our own ways of being and becoming naturally. Of course, we want to set goals sometimes. And we want to think about things and trajectories, etc. But too underneath all of that is if we get into a flow that feels authentic to ourselves, we're going to end up wherever it is that we need to end up. It may not even be where we thought we should end up. But we'll end up somewhere that we need to be whatever that looks like for us. And I try to be really careful. Because I know things happen, hurt happens, loss happens, grief happens. And I don't want to talk about that in a way that you know as "light" and go about all the analogies that we've heard before and all the things that get said. But I do think that I can say from my own life and attest to the fact that I've ended up in the spaces that I needed to be in for whatever lessons that were going to come next for me to continue to go forward. And some of who I wanted to be and how I wanted to be. So I think about the seasons often when I think about some of that growth and development and forward progression. Sometimes going backwards a bit as well. Right? It's not all linear.

Anabel Khoo  28:59

I usually invite every guest to share a reflection prompt or a practice and you'd like to share with the audience the prompt: "What is my biggest fear? And who would I be if it were healed?"

Danielle Gilmore  29:11

Mm-hmm. That's something that I ask myself often, really, because I think my biggest fear tends to shift depending on where I am and what I'm doing and who I'm with, etc. But yeah, I'll tell you something that's come up for me, a lot of the times is one of my biggest fears is being abandoned. Right? I guess we can say cliches I have abandonment issues, right? And so anytime I find myself being vulnerable in a space with someone I care about and not just in a romantic capacity, but you know, platonic friendships they have really touched me and helped me and been a part of my life in a way that has been really nurturing and nourishing and then I get scared. And I automatically go into, "okay, this person is going to leave me, I'm going to say something that's going to upset them, and they're no longer going to want to talk to me." Or, you know, they're going to find out something about me that I haven't shared. And they're going to think that that's enough to make them want to go away. Like, all these fears that play in my mind. And then I ask myself, "who would I be, if only in this moment--because I think it's all about the moment--if only in this moment this fear were healed, who would I be?" Then I would be more open to showing up with my full self available for access. I would be more open to saying exactly how I felt to this person, "hey, I'm afraid that I'll lose you in some way, because I really enjoy you. And I appreciate what we've developed and are developing together." Right? I'd be less fearful and more loving. When I think about that abandonment fear healing. And so I have to ask myself that routinely, in moments where I find myself with big fears. Like, I also have a big fear of being misunderstood. I'm someone who oftentimes speaks from my emotions. And that sometimes gets me in trouble. I've always wanted to be someone who would stop and think first and you know, bring my mind on board before I let my heart do the talking. And that's just not who I am naturally, although I'm working towards it. And so I think, who would I be, if this fear of being misunderstood was healed, then I'd be someone who be willing to continue to speak my truth as I know it. I'd also be someone who is speaking, my truth will be open to making proper amends, if if it arises, the need arises for me to do so. I'd be someone who will continue to work on my styles of communication and care about how others want to be communicated with. As I continue to look at these fears, and who I'm being when they're healed, it really gives me a lot of material to continue to work with.

Anabel Khoo  32:00

It's like a visionary type skill to be able to imagine that, you know, to do that work to embody, like an energy, like, sometimes it's like, we don't need to believe something to channel that in. Like, sometimes I'm like, I'm never gonna feel like, super secure, I'm never gonna feel, you know, completely lovable. But it's like, sometimes you can just hack that system by, you know, dreaming of it, and we do that already. Like when we go to sleep, we dream of things that we don't think are possible. So why can't we do that? And our body experiences it. So why can't we just do that when we're awake?

Danielle Gilmore  32:44

That's an incredible question, really. And I'm thinking about that, because I found that in these moments where I'm able to admit that I don't feel confident, or that I do have moments when I don't feel lovable, or this idea that I may never feel as lovable as I should be to receive the kind of love that I want. Those are places for me to be able to build from, right? Because it's always about progress, not perfection. And I think practicing makes progress. So me being able to say, "hey, I don't feel as confident as I would like to feel, but I will acknowledge that there's some confidence here." Or "I don't feel as lovable as I would like to feel, but I can acknowledge that I feel worthy of being loved." Like, because I think sometimes if you're anyone like me, I tend to be on either side of the spectrum. I'm completely lovable, and everyone should love me, come look at me, or all the way on the other side, I am not lovable at all. Please, no one look at me. I'd like to hide my face and go under something because I'm not deserving. And I find that the best approach for me is to continue to work on getting somewhere in the middle. Sometimes I feel loving. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel lovable. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I have confidence. Sometimes I don't. Right? Because it's all about the flow of it. There's never one thing or the other. Often, there's usually somewhere in the middle, both/and. I love love love "both/and".

Anabel Khoo  34:22

Yeah, like healing is really not a destination. It's like an ongoing practice. And you can still show up. I think probably that's what you do for folks is encourage them to just show up however they're feeling, wherever they are on that spectrum.

Danielle Gilmore  34:37

Yeah. And I also kindly caution against getting so caught up in this whole destination piece. Because I think there have been moments where I've been so focused on the destination that I absolutely have not paid much attention to the journey. And for me, the richness lies in the journey, like being able to acknowledge that someone said, or did something sweet for me on a day where I felt like no one cared for me, or being able to acknowledge how wonderful it felt to get a phone call from a friend that I hadn't spoken to in some time that I missed, or being able to think about the time when I stopped to help someone who was dropping their groceries because they couldn't carry them or whatever the case may be, right. But I think all of those little small things help us continue to be on the path of heading in the direction that we want to go in. But if I'm constantly focused on "well, I'll be deserving when I do this," or "I'll be lovable when I get there," or "when I heal this part of me, then I'll be worthy of friendship." And I just don't think it works that way. And I found that I've missed out on a lot of opportunities when I set my mind up that I need to be somewhere in particular to receive some of what I feel deserving of anyway.

Anabel Khoo  35:56

Yeah, kind of coming back to the very beginning of when you were sharing about how we already have what we're looking for. And that's yeah, really beautiful. Just today, because we were talking about how, you know, feeling grief. And I was feeling just some feelings around heartbreak and a sense of scarcity. I was talking to my friend, even just super briefly, and I was unlocking my bike or getting ready to, and they just did the sweetest thing. Like they, they were still listening to me while I was talking. And they just said, "I'm going to untwist your helmet strap, and I'm going to tighten it. Is that okay?" And I just was thinking about and like crying a little bit on my way home, because I just thought, wow, like, I could be broken, I could be a mess. And this close friend of mine is receiving that. And also, they're untwisting my helmet and tightening it and like to me, I'm just like... Wow, I already have love, you know, it's like, just beautiful to celebrate those things. Because it's not really quantifiable. You know, it's like the quality of that connection. And so that was a really nice reminder. Also, this experience has been so beautiful. And probably folks listening feel that way too.

Danielle Gilmore  37:22

I hope so. We already love you listeners. No really, and I think you and I are embodying some of what I really believe is essential. That we talk to people, that we connect, and we share ourselves with others, right? That's important. I think we can be--and again we--me, I'll bring it into my own heart, I can be so closed off sometimes with this fear of, you know, not fitting in or not knowing enough to be in some particular group that I think that I've been ostracized out of. And usually it's the stories that I make up. It's a lot less about anyone kicking me out of any group or anything like that it's more about the stories I tell myself about how I don't belong. And I'm always grateful for that friend that comes along and says, I'm gonna untwist your strap, or I'm gonna tighten it. Because we need that kind of love. We need those kinds of people in our lives to come and show us even though you're making up all the stories here, or even not necessarily making up stories, but you're feeling your feelings naturally, as we sometimes do. I am here for you. And I'm going to show you that I'm here for you by doing this very, you know, not even thought of task kind of thing, right? But in that moment, it was sustaining, right? It touched you in a place that had you feel like okay, I'm okay. For the moment at least. And even you making your way home and crying a bit from the emotions that invoked inside of you to see that someone cares for me. That's wonderful. Because what I also think that did for this experience is you sharing that with me and others who will hear this will remind us of some of those small moments that we've had with people who care for us that maybe we overlooked because we were thinking it was going to come in a spectacular bouquet of fireworks. And that's not always how it happens. 

Anabel Khoo  39:15

Exactly. 

Danielle Gilmore  39:15

Mm-hm.

Anabel Khoo  39:30

And with that, our episode is coming to a close. Hopefully by now you've got a clearer sense of how amazing Danielle Gilmore is. If you would like to follow her, you can find her on Instagram at the handle dani_publiclyspeaking. That's  D-A-N-I underscore publicly speaking, and you can reach her also via email at daniellefgilmore@gmail.com. She's also preparing a website that's forthcoming but you can reach her via Instagram or email in the meantime. And if you're interested in Danielle's workshop offerings, I also wanted to mention some examples of recent events that she has led. So just some examples to jog your mind or get you inspired. She did a BIPOC mindfulness retreat, a leadership and team building workshop for the NICHE, Black Women in Motion defining oneself workshop, anornment stories, conflict resolution workshop, and a meditation for Black joy workshop as well. And lots of other ones so you can follow her and get in touch if you want to learn more, and I'll see you next time!